Part one: breaking the blood scandal
In this episode of 'all about business,' host James Reed delves into a chilling investigation from the 1980s, uncovered by journalist, Sue Douglas, about contaminated blood supplies imported into Britain.
Sue narrates her time as a young medical correspondent when she uncovered a story about potentially AIDS-contaminated blood used for transfusions, risking public health.
She describes the challenges, including government hesitation and media backlash, and the impact of her groundbreaking report that led to a public inquiry 40 years later. This episode highlights the power of journalism, the consequence of systemic failures, and ongoing efforts for justice and compensation.
00:00 introduction to the podcast
00:28 a chance encounter leads to a big story
01:58 investigating the blood contamination
04:09 breaking the story
06:28 the aftermath and reflection
[00:00:00] James: Welcome to all about business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests, bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, built a business empire, their leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.
[00:00:28] Sue: So I got lucky because at that point, one of my old friends from my days on the medical magazine said, Oh, Sue, I've got this really interesting story, I think, but it needs to be done in a big newspaper and not on a medical magazine, because no one's going to take any notice. And it's already cropped up in the Lancet and the medical press.
So we're having cocktails in Covent Garden. I said, what is it? He said, well, I went to this conference the other day. Think about this. Is this a, is this a story? I think it is. [00:01:00] And the blood that we're using in Britain is, um, potentially contaminated with all sorts of nasties. And this AIDS thing that's just appeared, it could be in that too.
Now there were some hematologists, says my friend, at a conference I had to go to the other day who peeled off and in the bar, where I was as well, was saying they were really worried. What do you think? Because if I did it in the medical magazine, you know, no one's going to take any notice. It's just a possibility, but maybe if you do it and you did it on the mail on Sunday with millions of readers mid market, it would make a difference.
So I said, who was the one that you saw who was worried. Do you think he would talk to me? She said, well, I don't know if you're not medical press, you'd probably be scared. So this is important again, back to me being contrarian and not necessarily playing by the rules. And I would say [00:02:00] advice for quite a lot of people is sometimes you do have to break rules.
So I got the number for him, the telephone number, and he was working at a big teaching hospital. in Wales. Um, and I'm not going to say more because I've swore to him I would never reveal who he was. And I haven't to this day, despite the public inquiry that's just happened now. And, um, I phoned him up and I said, Oh, um, I wasn't there at the conference, but I gather from a couple of other hematologists that I know.
So I didn't say I wasn't one or was one, um, that you're really concerned about the blood that we're importing into the UK for routine transfusions and for blood products. Long silence. So can I come talk to you? Cause I'm really worried about it as well. So I still haven't said who I was and I went off.
Um, and now, as I say, I've, I've just got the job as medical correspondent. I'm 25 years old and I'm on this new newspaper. And I got [00:03:00] lucky because he told me that he was really concerned and amongst other, I went to see him at the hospital and He just opened up and told me about some of the things that were really worrying him, that hepatitis C, which we all knew about could be transmitted through blood, was one real potential because we weren't screening it.
And the Swiss and other people were beginning to heat treat blood. We could do that, but we weren't doing it. And we were importing because we weren't self sufficient. And where were we importing? And then I found out some good newspaper journalism that we were importing from America and that people were being paid, um, People on the street, drug addicts and people who were homeless and prisoners.
So then he said, so the possibility is, and I know this is happening, is that the AIDS virus, and we didn't know at this point, this is 1983, what really was causing AIDS, but we knew the route of transmission was blood and largely through homosexuals and needle [00:04:00] abuse, shared needles with people taking drugs on the street.
And he said, I'm really scared. So, okay, so I did about two weeks digging, um, again, as I say, got really lucky and the story was true. And the problem was that really nobody knew what to do about it. So at that point, because I'm quite young and pushy, probably, I remember seeing, um, health ministers and Ken Clark in particular.
And, um, Norman Fowler and various other civil servants and saying, are you worried? Well, so the thing is they would say, um, We're not self sufficient and David Owen has started this great project, the Elstree Laboratories, and it's going to cost us, I think it was eight million comes to mind, but it can't have been that little, um, [00:05:00] before we're self sufficient and that's going to be in two or three years.
So meanwhile, we're importing this blood and it's fine. It's American and you know, it's okay. So I went back to my source and, um, I've several times and he said, well, I think, you know, I can give you some other contacts. Now, by now I'm thinking he probably knows I'm not actually.
[00:05:21] James (2): I was going to ask as he worked out that you're a journalist.
I'm
[00:05:24] Sue: clearly not a haematologist, but he hadn't actually twigged and I hadn't published anything. Then I come home back to, um, come home back to the office in Fleet Street. And I say, right, I've really got this story wrapped up now. And the lawyers were all over it and the editor was all over it and we published and the headline was huge in 64 point or something even bigger.
Hospitals using killer blood.
Before we published, I phoned him up and I said, I'm reading you the whole thing. Listen. And he said, [00:06:00] yep. So I said, are you happy because I'm actually a hematologist? And he laughed and he said, I knew you weren't a hematologist.
[00:06:11] James (2): So the
[00:06:13] Sue: headline was true. The headline was true. I said, are you happy with me to run this?
He said, never ever come and see me again because my job is in jeopardy. Um, and never ever tell anyone who I am, but I'll continue to help you. Now, Um, 40 years on, there's a public inquiry this year, um, that's resulted in massive compensation. Um, but
[00:06:38] James (2): no one's received this yet. I mean, this is 40 years later and other countries, people have been compensated and
[00:06:44] Sue: people went to prison for lying and we continue to do it for 10 years.
At least 10 years, we continued to have that same blood and we weren't actually self sufficient. And there were things about human nature, again, you saying, you know, getting up [00:07:00] in the morning by this point, I'm loving what I'm doing, but it's scary because unless I'd had around me the support, which is really about the culture of where you're working and you're not a lone wolf and you do feel that you're doing this together, I could never have done it.
And the press council ruled against me saying that I was sensationalist, irresponsible and exposed people if they didn't take their blood products or refused transfusion, they could die. And that was true. But three and a half thousand people have died to date.
[00:07:32] James (2): So one of whom was my former boss, Anita Roddy.
Yes. Who went public about this. Yeah. So, um, yeah, it's a terrible episode.
[00:07:43] Sue: A terrible episode, but again, back to your question, what gets you up in the morning? If you think you can ever do that, even on the smallest level, that you might just make people think back to, you know, me never daring to say to miss, miss, why?
If [00:08:00] people aren't allowed to say that, or there isn't, you know, without going on about a free press, but democracy, and that you are allowed to ask questions and that you do have people around you to question you. What's going on to me? That was the most important thing. So it was validation There've been lots of fallow periods in my career when I've never done anything like that, but it's really important So you
[00:08:22] James (2): broke this big story.
This was 40 years ago, and it's still a big story with this recent inquiry and people still seeking and expecting compensation, rightly so.
[00:08:36] Sue: Yes, and rightly so. But again, I'm still in touch with some of them because I've felt very strongly that you don't just forget when something like that happens. And so one of the guys who I've been talking to for the last year, really, since the inquiry was first announced, said to me, I really hope that people the public, people aren't going to think that we're money grabbing and that, you know, this is about me having enough money to [00:09:00] buy a nice, an Aston Martin and go on a holiday.
He said, my life has been ruined and I've lost a brother and a father to this. Um, you know, no money can compensate for that. And I said, well, what does he said? It'd be really great if someone said, sorry, and it would be even better. So. If together we could work out a way where we could maybe make it never happen again.
And you think about all the other public inquiries about Stephen Lawrence or about, you know, the public inquiry into what on earth happened, you know, within the police that someone could actually pick up and murder a girl, uh, you know, trust. And I think it's really, really important to have a mechanism Um, to be able to talk to people and actually say, is this right beyond the [00:10:00] establishment?
Part two: Balancing business leadership and family life
In this episode of 'all about business,' Sue Douglas explores the complexities of balancing business management and leadership with personal life responsibilities.
Sue delves into the gender dynamics within professional settings, the historical and biological roles of men and women, and the struggle for achieving a balanced work-life equilibrium.
The conversation also touches upon personal anecdotes about parenting, societal expectations, and the implications of more women entering the workforce. The episode encourages listeners to think deeply about societal structures, gender roles, and the future of community-oriented living.
00:00 introduction to the podcast
00:27 gender differences and career choices
01:12 balancing career and family
02:21 reflections on parenting
03:29 community and work-life balance
05:14 gender pay gap and workplace inequality
07:02 concluding thoughts on gender roles
[00:00:00] James: Welcome to all about business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests, bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, built a business empire. They're leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.
[00:00:27] Sue: And I think that men and women are different in many ways. And partially it's biological, partially it's, you know, actual genuine physiology, but it's history. And that the thing I haven't talked about is that women can have children and traditionally have been the ones who look after those children. And I think a lot of women, um, have struggled with the choice of, well, it's fat.
I can be chief exec of Goldman Sachs or I can have children. But how do you have both? And [00:01:00] again, one of my, um, favorite people in the world, Germaine Greer, used to say, well, you can't. And I used to think, but we can and we have to, but it's a compromise. But is it a bad compromise? Maybe as I'm getting older, I think that men can have more things on both sides without being so driven and focused back to our point about ambition and what you can achieve.
But I look back on it and I think, I have three children and I've said to them now they're older.
[00:01:32] James: Boys or girls?
[00:01:33] Sue: I've got boy, girl, boy.
[00:01:35] James: So what do you say to your daughter?
[00:01:37] Sue: Well, this is interesting. We're in a pub and I'm with a group of people like we're having this conversation now and she's with some friends and I know she's listening in because women are aware of these things and I turn to her and I say, So I wasn't there for you, was I?
Because I was deputy editor when she was quite young, and I was in Fleet Street, and I was this, [00:02:00] and I was there, and I used to come in at midnight, and they're asleep. And I have some harrowing little notes from her and the others. Where are you, mummy? And she went, no, you weren't there. And I think, ah! And she says, but you were an inspiration, that we can do other things too.
But perhaps even more poignantly, my son who, um, has done very well, um, works for Rothschild in M& A now, um, and who's 30, he and I had a mom and son weekend recently, which is really important to me that we have these relationships. And I hadn't really talked to him, he's married now and he's doing really well, and we went for long walks together.
And we had, he actually not prompted said, well, you weren't there for us. And that really hurt me. And he said, but you were a crap mother at times, but when you were here, you were a really brilliant [00:03:00] mother. And it kind of set a different standard. And I know the, how lucky I've been. And we're very honest with each other now in this older relationship, but frankly, I had serial nannies.
And that's made me really think about what can I say to both men and women, like my, my children have both. I can't say, Oh, Men are the ones who earn the money and women are the ones who bring up the children. But I remember when David Cameron was talking about, um, you know, really trying to, you know, the, the scale of happiness in society and trying to reboot, um, communities.
And it was quite premature in many ways. I think we think about it and the current generation of youngsters think about it a lot that it's not just work, it's work life balance. And I thought about how women are so much a part of the community and they notice when the little old guy doesn't come out for his paper [00:04:00] or the dog has run over into the wreck and got run over or someone's lost something.
They notice those things because they're in the community. And now they're running Goldman Sachs or whatever else they are doing. They're not in the community, which leaves the community rudderless. And in a secular society with more and more women being engaged in, um, the whole economic drive, who's looking after society and communities?
And I don't know. And I was kind of living that and delegating in many ways, my children's childhood. And I, it's no good regretting things, but I'm observant of it, that women in a man's world, but a man's world isn't the world, a man's world is that work world. And that's where the interesting point about work life balance comes in.
[00:04:55] James: But maybe being corrected by the new generation that prioritizes this balance. I think it is. [00:05:00] I mean, what do you, what do
[00:05:00] Sue: you think? Do you think it is with your children? I think it's an
[00:05:03] James: interesting observation you make about society, perhaps suffering. And how the balance could be recalibrated, that's right.
[00:05:13] Sue: What do you think of this as well? Larry Summers, who I got to know quite well at Harvard, uh, uh, Chancellor of Harvard. So I'd just flown over, um, so I'm jet lagged and everything else, and we're having dinner with Neil and various other luminaries at Harvard. And we were talking about exactly this. And he said, well, with more women, um, in the workforce, women are so ambitious to be included in that workforce and they have the talent of course to do it, but they'll do it for less money and they bring the wages of professions like teaching, law and medicine as they flood it and they're more capable of doing that down.
So no man can enter that. And I was so angry with him and I've thought about it. It's haunted me because there's an element of truth in it.
[00:05:58] James: I don't agree with him. [00:06:00] I do. I do see that phenomena. I mean, our latest data read data shows that women on average earn 10, 000 less than men just as a, as a group and that have all sorts of disadvantages in the workplace that should be corrected.
It's the employer who decides.
[00:06:17] Sue: Yeah, but the employer can easily say, Oh, well, I get all the best women, I can pay
[00:06:21] James: less. Well, but that's, but they shouldn't be doing that. Well, we wouldn't do that. I can say categorically. And, and, but that seems to be a pattern that's happening though. If that, it must be, if women are being paid less.
Because
[00:06:35] Sue: we're prepared to do it for less. Now that's important too.
[00:06:39] James: Yeah. So a deal has been done, hasn't it? So, you know, there's been an agreement between employer and employee or worker and employer and Yeah. And so, so you're saying there's something there that women.
[00:06:52] Sue: I don't think it's right, but you know, there's lots of things that are wrong.
And again, back to why did I ever love journalism? It's not, there's a right or a wrong. I [00:07:00] just want people to think twice about what we're doing. And, and I, in no way am I saying, Oh, women should stay at home so they can look off the dog, not getting run over or the little old man over the street or look after your children.
Even I'm not saying that it's how we construct a way to contribute. Not equally. I don't want to be a man. I don't want to be the person who says, let's do a piece about, you know, women's socks, losing socks in the washing
machine.
Part three: From medicine to media: one woman's journey to Fleet Street
In this episode of 'all about business', host James Reed interviews Sue Douglas, who transitioned from a medical journalism background to becoming a top Fleet Street editor.
The guest shares her journey, starting with her move to apartheid-era South Africa, where she worked as a reporter for the Rand Daily Mail and witnessed significant historical events firsthand. She discusses her experiences and the pivotal moments that fuelled her passion for journalism.
Upon returning to the UK, she navigated her way through the competitive media landscape, encountering both setbacks and successes, ultimately finding her place in the vibrant and chaotic world of Fleet Street journalism.
00:00 introduction to the podcast
00:28 guest's career beginnings
00:38 journey to South Africa
01:22 reporting in South Africa
03:05 return to Fleet Street
03:50 joining News of the World
[00:00:00] James: Welcome to all about business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests, bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, built a business empire. They're leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.
But then you, your career really sort of lit up, didn't it? I mean, you ended up being a Fleet Street editor.
[00:00:34] Sue: So talk me through that and how you did that. So the track from Medical, um, went It's always involves a man, you see, as a woman, my then boyfriend from Arthur Anderson days had moved to South Africa to start the Anderson's office in Johannesburg.
And I didn't want to go because I was loving what I did. Long story short, also it was apartheid [00:01:00] South Africa. And I spent. quite politically opposed to that. But then he sent me a one way ticket and told me he bought me a sports car. So on that basis, I went, um, I do, um, my 18th birthday present from said father, the engineer who wanted us to be boys was the skid pans at brands hatch.
So you begin to see the DNA here. Um, so I went to South Africa and I worked for the Rand daily mail. Um, Um, and there I was on stories as a reporter having abandoned all my medical background now and I'm just a reporter and loving it. Nelson Mandela is still in prison and I'm out in Soweto watching horrible, horrible things.
And there was one of those moments, and I think everyone's careers have moments. And I remember I was standing with a photographer and watching a big Africana policeman beating up. a young boy and they were demonstrators and they'd [00:02:00] been silly and they were running riot and he got hold of him and he was whacking him with a sandbox and really whacking him.
And next to me, Greg is taking the pictures and I'm feeling totally impotent with a pencil and a pen and a notebook. And I said, come on, Greg, we've got to stop him. He's going to kill him. And Greg said, no, click, click, the world click. We'll see this. You stop that and the world won't see it. And you'll be in prison as well.
Now that was, I can see that like it was yesterday and it was a long time ago because I would have been 24, 25 years old, 24. And, um, I think the lessons that I learned there really at the front line made me absolutely fall head over heels in love with being a journalist. So the drama of it, but the import of what you could portray and what you could do back to the social worker career that I'd been told, uh, told maybe I should follow.
Um, but also it made me think I can make a [00:03:00] difference. And that really, really mattered to me when I came home, um, after a year there. I thought right now I want some awards for the journalism I've done there. I'll waltz into a career in Fleet Street. And I went to the Guardian, which would have been the natural home.
I'd been a member of the ANC, a member of Black Sash. I was a very good friend of Winnie Mandela's, and I was all the card carrying, I'm a Guardian person. And they barely took the time to see me, and I remember the person I went to be interviewed with, and important about recruitment again looking and going that's a bit contrived.
No. So I walked out. And I'm not allowed to say very bad expletives in this interview, but I thought, okay, fine. So I walked down Fleet Street, down in the old days when everybody was, um, literally in one patch. And I walked into the offices of the News of the World. I didn't even know that they were the News of the World.
And I said, have you got any shifts for news reporters? And they said, yeah, yeah, over there, love. [00:04:00] 53 pounds, 76p a shift. Off you go, over there. And I went over there and registered, and I walked into what was called the animals room. And in the animals room, there was a room about this size, was Pauli Yates standing on a desk, screaming at, that, that was that long ago, a black baited Bakelite phone.
I think it was, maybe it was black plastic by then. Screaming at Bob Geldof, and four other people in the room, who I still am in touch with. Um, one of them Rebecca Brooks, um, who later became chief exec of the whole of, uh, news. UK and they were fairly exotic other animals. And I thought, ha, again, I found my metier.
So I love that again, contrarian inclusive, slightly mad world.
Follow Sue Douglas on LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/suedouglas
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
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