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In today’s episode of all about business, James Reed speaks with Anita Dougall, the founder and CEO of data consultancy firm, Sagacity.
Anita started the business in 2005, and since then has helped companies like AA, British Gas and Moonpig, spin their data into business gold.
She reveals how to use data to optimise customer engagement, drive revenue, and resolve the billing issues that could be costing you millions.
About Anita
Anita is the CEO and founding partner of Sagacity, a leading consultancy that specialises in providing data-driven insights to help businesses maximise their returns.
Before co-founding Sagacity in 2005, Anita worked in investment banking. Her experience in financial and commercial roles that relied heavily on technology, led to becoming an independent consultant, eventually co-founding Sagacity.
In 2025, Anita was recognised on the E2E Female 100 track list, which celebrates the UK’s fastest growing female-led or founded businesses.
00:31 understanding data
04:55 improving customer engagement
06:28 billing and debt collection
20:03 Anita's career journey
30:13 business growth
37:30 choosing the right investor
42:46 recruitment and company culture
45:58 data usage and permissions
Visit Sagacity’s website: http://www.sagacitysolutions.co.uk/
Read about Anita’s recognition on the E2E Female 100 track list: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/e2e-100/the-e2e-female-100-track-2025-b2710912.html
Follow Anita on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anita-dougall-63a06445/
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
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Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed. The podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests of bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, and built a business empire. They're leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.
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Unknown
the key to increasing revenue, improving customer relationships and making better business decisions, according to today's guest. The answer is hidden in your data. Anita Dougal started her data consultancy sagacity all the way back in 2005. Since then, she's worked with some of the UK's biggest brands, spinning their data into business gold. In today's episode, she'll explain how you can use your data to solve your most complex business challenges and turn your data into dollars.
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Anita,
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thank you so much for coming to talk to me this afternoon on All About Business.
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Unknown
I've been looking forward to this conversation very much, because it's all about data, isn't it? And you are
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the
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sort of leader in data services and data analysis. And we hear so much about data, people always saying you need to know more about data.
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The sort of secret is in the data, but you're a person who actually does stuff with data, and your business sagacity makes it its job to help companies use data much more effectively. I want to understand what is it you do first and how do you do it?
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What we focus on,
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sagacity really is
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improving
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return on investment for businesses. That's one of our biggest things that we look for, for data. You know, this data, you could do security data, you could do quality on data, you can do,
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return on investment or growth, etc.. So, so,
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such a broad topic, what we focus on is really increasing either that growth for companies or really helping with that customer engagement and segmentation.
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So that's the facets,
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sagacity that we deal with. So if I really take you through some real examples, we will help companies with,
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challenges on growth to really how acquisition. So AI is a recent example. You can go onto the scarcity. Co.Uk website and have a look at their testimonial where they really wanted to understand the customer and grow their customer base, mainly through cross-sell.
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The challenge they put to us was they've got customers on lots of systems and different products, and they need a mechanism of bringing that together, but they need to bring that together really quickly.
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And most companies had
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advise from that. It was a three year journey to do that. Given how vast the AI is.
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So this is the AI that was described as the fourth emergency
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service.
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So people would come and
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fix your car, but you will talk about cross-selling.
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Yeah. So they do products. Yeah. So they do various helping them.
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But what their that sort of motor support database is separate from their insurance database. Is that what you say.
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Yes. Yes.
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So
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how do you approach a problem like that to help them.
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Yeah. So build their business. So what we did was understand how many systems they've got
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with data
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in their on the customer and what systems have what products.
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So what we put together was a solution then that brought together what we call a single customer view. So bringing all that data together, rather than having to work each system and change each system, was actually build a solution over the top.
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Unknown
What we call single customer view that takes the feeds from all those various systems, normalizes the data, i.e. so we understand it. We standardize that data, we join that data. So we might have James Reid, for example, appearing in different ways. It might be with an S without an S with one E to E's,
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etc.. Yeah. You can still read in lots of different ways.
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It's only one simple name, which is very confusing. Yeah.
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Unknown
I mean you joke about that, but that's a problem with data. Is that because little changes, little differences
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can
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confuse and
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lead to the wrong
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outcomes. And conclusions. Yeah. Yeah.
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so the a example is you use the term cross selling.
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this has always been a sort of goal in business that you have a customer that uses one of your services but not another.
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How do you get them to use both. And I've found that in my career really difficult. You know, they might want because they're very clear what they want. And then they're buying one thing and they don't know. Say, woman, have you found that this sort of greater knowledge of data or this forensic examination of data, actually enabled that successfully?
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I mean, what what was the IaaS journey? Have they
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made more cross sales than they were in
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the past? Is that actually working? Because that would suggest this is a change in the weather on that subject.
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Well, the key in all of that is
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really understanding the customer and getting the engagement right. So that means engagement in terms of tone of the communication.
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It's the type of communication. So if James likes a letter let's send James a letter. If James likes a Sims let's send
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James Naismith. So this is where we utilize our data to add that personalization. So the increases are engagement. So there's less waste in that customer contact. And also you're not irritating the customer by just sending them anything you feel like.
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Unknown
You know, if I like a letter though.
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Unknown
So we have preferences that are captured by you in some kind of mechanism. So it might be you've
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responded to email. So that might be recorded. It might be that you've responded to digital communication. So that's recorded. And wherever we get these, if you imagine bits of information we continually building that profile of the customer.
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So we have really clear,
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data at individual level as well as demographics or geographical level on how customers like to be contacted.
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And we do that either by real data or modeled data.
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it's really accurate.
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mentioned you help companies build their businesses through, I guess, added sales.
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But you also mention that you help them with that and the financial side of things.
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How does that work?
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what you
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do. Yeah. So we use data across the customer lifecycle. So right from prospecting acquisition billing or in life like the way to debt collection. So we will use data if we just take billing and customer management for a minute.
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Unknown
I think a bit surprising. So sometimes this can be a hard sell.
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Unknown
But we've never been to a company where they don't have billing issues ever.
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Unknown
And what do we mean by billing issues. So we will look at data. We will look at process and we will look at people and join them all.
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Unknown
And often that billing journey has a cross-functional element in companies. And that cross-functional element means that a customer is joined and that is dealt with by one department.
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Unknown
The billing happens by another department. Yeah. So you've got all these different departments and silos in companies. What we do in through the data is understanding the process and the people, but bringing it together through data, and what we will often find is things like customers that have never been billed. Now, that's always a surprise to most companies.
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Unknown
So they've been onboarded, they're using the service. And this is, you know, a good example. In telecoms, for example, we do this and we do it in agriculture. So some people aren't getting
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their telephone bill.
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Yeah. Or water bill or electricity bill or
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they're not going to ring up and say, hey, you can send me the bill. Are know they're not funny.
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Yeah. So you're surfacing those. So we're you
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find that a lot to.
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Yeah. It's multiple millions in lots of companies.
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And even in the small companies it's
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to say that happened
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because it's not been passed successfully from one department.
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Yeah. So it happens.
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Unknown
So some of it is through system. So for example,
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I've acquired 100 customers, but only 95 have reached the billing system because there's been some exceptional problem along that system journey.
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And nobody's really picked up the exceptions or understood them or processed them. So whilst the customer's receiving the service, they're not receiving the bills.
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Unknown
So you just used to run a cross-check where you look at all the customers and look at all the
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bills. Yeah, look at the bills. These ones are missing. Yeah, yeah. So the
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some customers get billed more than once.
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Yes.
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So the reverse
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we are
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getting overbought.
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Unknown
Yeah. We look at overbilling and underbelly because with regulated industries which is what we operate in, both of those things are a problem. If there are fines for businesses that are overbilling. And there are obviously
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challenges with revenue with underbelly and losses
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and
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losses that are experienced. But the other thing that
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is of interest for most companies is we'll also go back to contracts and look at what the contract
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says this is what should happen.
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Unknown
And you would be surprised how many times they are not aligned. And if I give you an example to bring it to life, it might say that if you join ECS, you will get a discount of why for 12 months,
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Unknown
when we go and run the data, that discount is still running on those customer accounts. So it was never taken away at month 12.
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Unknown
Now, when volume business this is big money or it says you've got to buy these three services for you to get the discount. So the customer joins with the three services and then cancels one
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Unknown
and hasn't got the right really to have those discounts. But they're never removed by the system because the system's not been configured. But then no governance is in place to go and check that either.
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Forensically.
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Unknown
So you really digging into the data along? Yeah.
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Unknown
Yeah,
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Unknown
Well, it sounds like there's a huge amount of money at stake in these big organizations right there in the detail, in the data.
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Unknown
Yeah, yeah. And that's the biggest,
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issue is putting the data across what should happen to what does happen.
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Unknown
And they're never the same.
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Unknown
No, never is the word. We've never found a business with that yet.
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Unknown
So interesting. So none
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of them are
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doing what they think they're doing.
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They're all doing something different. Yeah.
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Unknown
And then I think just moving on from billing, you've got the debt journey now,
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Unknown
every company has a debt challenge and that could be what's a debt challenge?
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Unknown
So this is where customers are being billed. So our clients have their customers B2B or B2C,
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Unknown
being billed but not paying. And that could be they're not paying at all. Or it could be they're paying really slowly. Either of those,
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as we know, present a challenge to businesses.
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Unknown
So are you saying that more and more
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is that an increasing phenomenon that people aren't paying?
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Unknown
Or
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do I think definitely increasing as the bills are rising?
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Unknown
We all know you talk about energy here. Well, any industry really,
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oil prices are
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rising, oil prices are rising. They're not going down in many
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places.
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Unknown
Yeah. So,
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Unknown
it's I mean, recently in the press water energy have taken a real hit on that. But all prices are rising.
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Unknown
And as prices are rising, the income is not probably rising proportionately.
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Unknown
For some people, particularly those at the vulnerable, financially vulnerable end of the scale,
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that starts presenting challenges. And what we're really doing is helping customers, our customers. So our clients proactively reaching out to those customers and offering support. So there is a lot of support available to customers that is untapped.
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Unknown
What sort of things you talk about. So if, for example, your income is below a certain threshold for argument's say 20,000, you could contact a water company.
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Unknown
There are packages where you can get up to 3,040% discount off the bill. Now, many people don't know how to tap into that or feel embarrassed to tap into that.
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Unknown
We did a survey recently, and only 6% of customers knew that there was actually,
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support available to them
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that they could get a discount or reject bill, get discount.
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Unknown
So it's worth making that call anyway. Yeah, yeah.
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Unknown
But to people pick up the phone when you make that call because some of these companies are quite able to get hold of.
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Unknown
Yeah. I mean they, they do. There's sometimes specific lines or you can write in. So this,
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this topic is taken very seriously by all clients.
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Unknown
And we see that across the board.
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Unknown
There's a big push from sagacity for companies to proactively help customers, because the other thing our survey, extrapolated was that customers were embarrassed to ask for that support. Right. So they don't feel comfortable. So what we're doing through profiling in the data we hold is helping those customers segment that, customer base and reach out proactively where we can see people that need help because we've got household income, for example, in our data.
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Unknown
Right. So,
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Unknown
there's a big push from our perspective that we should be helping those customers, but that's only one end of the scale
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where people are entitled to these these discounts or support.
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Unknown
Yeah. And they should be getting that, shouldn't they? I mean that's the.
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Unknown
Yeah.
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Unknown
And money's there available using the data. Yeah. Companies want to use it.
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Unknown
But companies have done it the other way where they wait for somebody to contact them to ask and aren't really proactively reaching out to them. And you can help them do this and we can help the other do that. Yeah.
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Unknown
what about people just don't want to pay because they're the
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Unknown
one. Yeah, that's what I mean.
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Unknown
That's that's be
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Unknown
another segment.
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Unknown
Yeah. There's other segments throughout. So that's one segment. But you go all the way through to people just not paying, and they're not paying because they're not being chased or they're not being chased appropriately. So this is where we use data heavily in a lot of the time. Our clients data itself is to help segment those customers, but also use some third party data.
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Unknown
So,
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Unknown
we can use third party data where we can see if an individual, for example, you, James, you're paying every bill you receive, but you're just not paying the water bill will not just pay the,
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Unknown
energy bill or the telephone bill that we're seeing for our clients. What that normally indicates is two things. One is there's a process breakdown of our clients where things are not being chased effectively, or you've got a problem with that customer, which is why you're not paying.
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Unknown
So that could be an underlying issue or a complaint. That's not the thinking. But yeah, I might be annoyed
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Unknown
about something or you have a complaint that's not being addressed. Or maybe I haven't seen the bill and received it, or maybe if it's been sent by email, I missed it or that sort of thing. It went into my company junk
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Unknown
or something.
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Unknown
Yeah, that can happen. So sometimes it's not because choosing not to, but it just I know it's there so often.
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Unknown
Our clients are worried about customer experience and complaints off the back of being chased, etc. but I think they're pleasantly surprised when we work with them and segment their data and reach out to customers on the amount of customers that pay.
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Unknown
So so they're worried that you might go chasing these individual that haven't paid and upset them.
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Unknown
Yes.
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Unknown
So how do you make sure you don't upset? Because obviously you want to have a possible a fair and equitable outcome
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Unknown
for everybody. Yeah.
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Unknown
We do that through the customer communication itself. So we're mindful of the way we're communicating with customers.
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Unknown
We also tailor that communication in a way that, gets that engagement. And we've always said to our clients, don't be afraid to apologize. So it might be we haven't got in touch with you about your bill or it may be that you might not have received your bill. So be engaging as opposed to going in straight with you.
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Unknown
You haven't paid your bill in. You need to pay it now. And we also do it through outbound dialing. So calling customers and making sure that the teams are coached and trained to handle those calls effectively. But more importantly, if the customer has an issue to listen to, that issue, take ownership, address the issue and then take payment.
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Unknown
And often that goes amiss. So you'll have agents asking for the money, the client saying, I've got an issue and you can see the clashing going on.
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Unknown
It doesn't go any further and doesn't go any further. So they're not paying. So you've got but you've got to
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Unknown
empower the agent that in that
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Unknown
sense. Yeah. And it's it's done.
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Unknown
How do you do that.
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Unknown
So it's through coaching training giving them they're re making sure they're really clear about the conversation, making sure they're human in their interaction. You know not saying start with data but
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Unknown
then you're ending up with
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Unknown
the human interaction system. Yeah. So we're training them how to interact with the system to have a look at when that bill was sent and how much was it, and has the customer contacted them so they can quickly get a profile,
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Unknown
and then engage with you and we've got a huge success rate.
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Unknown
We can have an uplift of 30 to 40% in a month on collection rates. And these are large businesses with large debts. You can imagine that it's multiple millions of pounds.
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Unknown
And this is through going through this process and reaching out to the customers in new and different ways. Yeah,
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Unknown
yeah.
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Unknown
Or in fact just reaching out
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Unknown
because they're reaching out in some cases.
00:18:43:23 - 00:18:51:02
Unknown
But then the other thing is not reaching out once and hoping the customers will react because customers don't do that.
00:18:51:02 - 00:18:52:08
Unknown
some customers like making
00:18:52:08 - 00:18:54:11
Unknown
sales in a way that the other end.
00:18:54:11 - 00:19:00:13
Unknown
Yeah. And keep going. Yeah. You do. And something we always say is really important is
00:19:00:13 - 00:19:13:23
Unknown
making sure that you do what you say. So if I say, I'm going to call you tomorrow morning, call you tomorrow morning, because otherwise you're training the customer to behave in a way that they shouldn't, which is not to keep the promises.
00:19:13:23 - 00:19:29:16
Unknown
And you're not keeping to your promise. So it may be that you agreed to call tomorrow, and the customer might not answer. You need to dial right and keep going. Then use other make mechanisms so they've got your phone number. I can't get hold of you. I can send you an SMS. If you don't respond to their SMS, then I'll send you a letter.
00:19:29:20 - 00:19:43:20
Unknown
If you don't respond to the letter, that's where it then escalates into debt collection agency. You can affect your credit rating, etc. so we ask for the journey to be explained to that customer. But in a really nice customer engaging way.
00:19:43:20 - 00:19:49:19
Unknown
Okay, so Anita, you started this business sagacity I think 20 years ago now.
00:19:49:19 - 00:19:52:12
Unknown
What was your first sort of insight or project?
00:19:52:15 - 00:19:57:03
Unknown
How did you get started? I mean, I don't think it was debt collection. Was it,
00:19:57:03 - 00:20:00:16
Unknown
was it it was implementing a system actually for debt collection,
00:20:00:16 - 00:20:01:14
Unknown
implementing a system.
00:20:01:14 - 00:20:05:05
Unknown
Yeah. So talk me through that. Your first. Okay. So
00:20:05:05 - 00:20:09:03
Unknown
and why you decided to start in business
00:20:09:03 - 00:20:10:24
Unknown
with a couple of partners, I think.
00:20:10:24 - 00:20:14:14
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, I started life actually in investment banking.
00:20:14:16 - 00:20:19:21
Unknown
On the credit side, an analysis for the energy sector. So BP, shell,
00:20:19:21 - 00:20:20:24
Unknown
so you were
00:20:20:24 - 00:20:22:13
Unknown
evaluating these big businesses
00:20:22:13 - 00:20:22:23
Unknown
and
00:20:22:23 - 00:20:24:10
Unknown
their share price was likely to gobble
00:20:24:10 - 00:20:26:00
Unknown
down. Yeah. And they're lending,
00:20:26:00 - 00:20:28:09
Unknown
with the bank investment banking. So,
00:20:28:09 - 00:20:29:10
Unknown
so you're lending them lots
00:20:29:10 - 00:20:35:11
Unknown
of money? Yeah. Billions, billions of these. And you had to decide the age of the 21,
00:20:35:11 - 00:20:36:22
Unknown
21
00:20:36:22 - 00:20:37:19
Unknown
the age of 21.
00:20:37:20 - 00:20:56:01
Unknown
Did you get that job? I have no idea what could be. How did I get that job? Actually, a friend put in the application for me, so I never thought I'd get that job. But, yeah, one interview I'll never forget. Actually, my life, it was so intense. Why was that? Well,
00:20:56:01 - 00:20:57:06
Unknown
to get these roles,
00:20:57:06 - 00:20:57:16
Unknown
Why was it.
00:20:57:16 - 00:20:59:06
Unknown
It was. It was intense. Intense?
00:20:59:06 - 00:21:04:17
Unknown
Just the the interview starting at 8:00 in the morning till six at night, full on,
00:21:04:17 - 00:21:16:13
Unknown
different scenarios, financial tasks, English literacy, accountancy, a set of accounts put in front of me that I'd never read to and then to present to a team. So you had a
00:21:16:13 - 00:21:17:22
Unknown
whole day of,
00:21:17:22 - 00:21:19:18
Unknown
intense interview.
00:21:19:20 - 00:21:26:04
Unknown
I remember at one point thinking I was going to walk out because I just thought it was awful, couldn't cope with it.
00:21:26:04 - 00:21:29:03
Unknown
In fact, I remember calling my father about
00:21:29:03 - 00:21:37:17
Unknown
during the day. Yeah, during the day, quickly to say, I think I'm going to leave. And the best thing he ever said to me was, if you leave, you haven't got the job.
00:21:37:17 - 00:21:52:00
Unknown
If you stay, you may have the job. So that was good advice. That was good advice. So I stayed and they phoned me the next morning to say I'd got the job on the top grade and I'd done really well. And he were surprised. I was surprised, it was interesting.
00:21:52:00 - 00:21:53:13
Unknown
Why do you think you got that so wrong?
00:21:53:24 - 00:21:56:24
Unknown
So no, I just interesting sometimes.
00:21:56:24 - 00:21:58:06
Unknown
Really hard to tell what's
00:21:58:06 - 00:22:12:14
Unknown
going on. Yeah, I think it was just the pressure and the intensity. But you also performing in a way and. Yeah. And you're 21 years old. Yeah. So you know now you think of it differently. But then it was just intense questions. My first experience.
00:22:12:14 - 00:22:15:20
Unknown
So I did that for 3 or 4 years.
00:22:15:22 - 00:22:19:14
Unknown
And then I decided it wasn't for me. It was very,
00:22:19:14 - 00:22:23:03
Unknown
male style pale investment banks. You're allowed to say that,
00:22:23:03 - 00:22:23:15
Unknown
Anita.
00:22:23:15 - 00:22:27:19
Unknown
Yes, I am, I always break rules. You
00:22:27:19 - 00:22:31:01
Unknown
saying that? Yeah. Yeah. I'll let you let you have that one. I
00:22:31:01 - 00:22:32:05
Unknown
don't encounter it,
00:22:32:05 - 00:22:36:15
Unknown
but go up there. So you didn't you felt it was time to move, you know, and,
00:22:36:15 - 00:22:39:03
Unknown
I think I was the only female,
00:22:39:03 - 00:22:41:11
Unknown
and only nonwhite person.
00:22:41:16 - 00:22:42:04
Unknown
Money
00:22:42:04 - 00:22:44:23
Unknown
in the bank across that whole floor.
00:22:44:23 - 00:22:45:19
Unknown
I'm asking you was
00:22:45:19 - 00:22:47:11
Unknown
genuinely. Was that a motivation for leaving?
00:22:47:11 - 00:22:48:00
Unknown
No,
00:22:48:00 - 00:22:50:02
Unknown
so you observed that. But that wasn't why you left.
00:22:50:02 - 00:22:59:17
Unknown
No, it wasn't why I left. But I observed it to think, oh, is this for me? Right? You know, really, given this environment,
00:22:59:17 - 00:23:01:06
Unknown
was quite structured.
00:23:01:06 - 00:23:06:16
Unknown
And stay right and, you know, wasn't really fast pace in any way.
00:23:06:16 - 00:23:16:01
Unknown
Everything was too methodical. And it was a great experience. And I know why it had to be like that, because you're dealing with billions of pounds with large,
00:23:16:01 - 00:23:24:05
Unknown
it's just a different culture. But the culture business. Yeah, the business culture made me leave because I couldn't see.
00:23:24:11 - 00:23:30:21
Unknown
I wouldn't personally be drawn to that either. Yeah. As the culture. Yeah. So I just thought that's really not for me.
00:23:30:21 - 00:23:44:00
Unknown
So I went another extreme and joined a company called 1 to 1 at the time, which was a mobile telephone business that nobody had really heard of within the M25. And,
00:23:44:00 - 00:23:49:18
Unknown
I think everyone thought I was mad going from an investment banking environment, really hard to get into.
00:23:49:18 - 00:23:51:03
Unknown
I'm probably very well paid.
00:23:51:03 - 00:23:57:23
Unknown
Yeah, very well paid. And that I think I was paid probably what graduates get paid today 30 something years on.
00:23:57:23 - 00:24:04:09
Unknown
So it was very, very well paid and then decided to go and join this company called want one?
00:24:04:09 - 00:24:10:11
Unknown
That no one had heard of. And I remember people saying, why would anyone want a mobile phone?
00:24:10:14 - 00:24:21:23
Unknown
Why are you joining a mobile phone business? Because nobody really had mobile phone other than a few businesses. And mobile phones. They were Carphone. So yeah. Yeah. And,
00:24:21:23 - 00:24:23:06
Unknown
I love the campaign.
00:24:23:06 - 00:24:30:04
Unknown
That they launched with, which was a phone everyday for everyone, and they were saying that they were going to get the mobile phone into the mass market.
00:24:30:06 - 00:24:35:22
Unknown
And I think, you know, that was just a brilliant point in my career.
00:24:35:22 - 00:24:43:11
Unknown
Because I joined the company really early on and watched it grow to millions of customers and got the opportunity to work in lots of different areas.
00:24:43:11 - 00:24:48:04
Unknown
So I then thought actually, it'd be good to go and do something different.
00:24:48:04 - 00:24:50:11
Unknown
And I joined another startup,
00:24:50:11 - 00:24:56:10
Unknown
company, which was a European, broad based broadband based company. It was quite high risk. And,
00:24:56:10 - 00:24:57:12
Unknown
it's interesting because
00:24:57:12 - 00:24:59:17
Unknown
now you're moving from banking into technology here.
00:24:59:17 - 00:25:02:03
Unknown
Yeah. So I moved to telecoms and then this was,
00:25:02:03 - 00:25:07:03
Unknown
broadband, you know, in another stage because that wasn't that was new. That was new.
00:25:07:03 - 00:25:08:06
Unknown
that company,
00:25:08:06 - 00:25:10:07
Unknown
folded six months later.
00:25:10:07 - 00:25:11:14
Unknown
all startups succeed.
00:25:11:14 - 00:25:11:24
Unknown
No,
00:25:12:00 - 00:25:12:19
Unknown
no, they don't
00:25:13:11 - 00:25:15:12
Unknown
try. Yeah, yeah. And
00:25:15:12 - 00:25:16:10
Unknown
most don't.
00:25:16:18 - 00:25:32:16
Unknown
Yeah. Most don't. And that was an interesting moment because I could see quite a lot of tears in the room. And I was really excited that even just not everyone but me, I'd be made redundant. And,
00:25:32:16 - 00:25:33:10
Unknown
you were excited.
00:25:33:10 - 00:25:39:24
Unknown
I was excited was playing because I thought, actually, I could go and set something up now and it's going to force me to do it
00:25:39:24 - 00:25:40:09
Unknown
right.
00:25:40:16 - 00:25:43:01
Unknown
So that's why I was excited. So this
00:25:43:01 - 00:25:43:24
Unknown
was going to make you.
00:25:43:24 - 00:25:44:21
Unknown
Yeah. I think
00:25:44:21 - 00:25:45:10
Unknown
the next chapter.
00:25:45:10 - 00:25:46:07
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:46:07 - 00:25:47:11
Unknown
So I decided that,
00:25:47:11 - 00:25:56:04
Unknown
I wasn't going to take a permanent job, and I was actually going to go and settle on my own. Right. Which I did for six years, be priests against so and
00:25:56:04 - 00:25:57:05
Unknown
so. That was as a consultant.
00:25:57:07 - 00:26:05:06
Unknown
Yeah. So as an independent consultant and. Oh, you consulting my first contract Wills Virgin Mobile consulting on
00:26:05:06 - 00:26:07:01
Unknown
a debt challenge. They had
00:26:07:01 - 00:26:09:00
Unknown
they had no debt system to manage it. I
00:26:09:00 - 00:26:09:16
Unknown
see.
00:26:09:16 - 00:26:11:20
Unknown
And then that's where,
00:26:11:20 - 00:26:18:04
Unknown
the idea started generating into we could do something more with this. And that's when Harry Malka.
00:26:18:04 - 00:26:19:02
Unknown
So they're your business partner?
00:26:19:02 - 00:26:22:13
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. So Harry's my brother. Mark is my best friend, right?
00:26:22:13 - 00:26:23:03
Unknown
Doing what's
00:26:23:03 - 00:26:23:13
Unknown
interesting.
00:26:23:17 - 00:26:24:20
Unknown
A family and
00:26:24:20 - 00:26:25:15
Unknown
best friend.
00:26:25:15 - 00:26:25:24
Unknown
Yeah, it's
00:26:25:24 - 00:26:27:17
Unknown
quite high risk, isn't it?
00:26:27:17 - 00:26:28:01
Unknown
Well,
00:26:28:01 - 00:26:29:21
Unknown
we all fell out. You don't have a friend or.
00:26:32:11 - 00:26:40:15
Unknown
We obviously haven't. Yeah. So obviously he's like, oh you haven't. Yeah. Quite a lot of people that said that and thought my accountant was really nervous about it. Right.
00:26:40:15 - 00:26:43:09
Unknown
At the time and said a lot not doing quite well.
00:26:43:09 - 00:26:46:23
Unknown
And, you know, is this the right thing? He's a good friend of mine, even today.
00:26:46:23 - 00:26:50:19
Unknown
And he has said that your journey has been amazing because,
00:26:50:19 - 00:26:56:04
Unknown
Yeah, still my best friend, in fact, even more of a best friend. And Harry's my brother and also a friend, so,
00:26:56:04 - 00:26:57:06
Unknown
so that's worked out well.
00:26:57:06 - 00:27:00:07
Unknown
So may I ask whether you're a third, third, third.
00:27:00:07 - 00:27:00:12
Unknown
Is
00:27:00:12 - 00:27:08:21
Unknown
Yeah. So that's what I decided at the time, was that we invest in it as well or. No, no, we just didn't decided that we would set up,
00:27:08:21 - 00:27:22:16
Unknown
sagacity and it would be a third, a third, a third. And I think that's, you know, a really good way of doing things, because I think a lot of business people that I talk to or businesses fail, they
00:27:22:16 - 00:27:25:08
Unknown
don't have that attitude they think are the pay into it.
00:27:25:08 - 00:27:32:16
Unknown
All this. Whereas I'm a great believer there's enough for everybody. And actually if you share that, yeah, then
00:27:32:16 - 00:27:43:11
Unknown
this is really interesting. I had another guest here who had a business partner. I said, what about a triumvirate, as I called it, and I was three like you described, and he thought that wouldn't work. So you're living proof that it has.
00:27:43:11 - 00:27:44:15
Unknown
Yeah. He said in the
00:27:44:15 - 00:27:45:00
Unknown
episode,
00:27:45:00 - 00:27:47:12
Unknown
you, sir. So
00:27:47:12 - 00:27:48:21
Unknown
how do you work together?
00:27:48:21 - 00:27:51:01
Unknown
Those three, I mean, obviously the three
00:27:51:01 - 00:27:52:08
Unknown
co-owners.
00:27:52:08 - 00:27:55:00
Unknown
But at Duke, what are your different sort of special?
00:27:55:00 - 00:27:57:03
Unknown
Yeah. So I, I want
00:27:57:03 - 00:27:57:16
Unknown
abilities.
00:27:57:16 - 00:27:58:24
Unknown
now early on,
00:27:58:24 - 00:27:59:21
Unknown
well, when you began, how
00:27:59:21 - 00:28:00:09
Unknown
did you. Oh, well,
00:28:00:09 - 00:28:10:01
Unknown
from when we began. Who did what? Yeah, yeah, we worked as a team, and we've got very different skill sets, and we recognize that, and we use each other.
00:28:10:01 - 00:28:10:14
Unknown
All right, so
00:28:10:14 - 00:28:13:13
Unknown
depending on the me through each person what the skill set. So
00:28:13:13 - 00:28:18:16
Unknown
Malcolm is very operational process,
00:28:18:16 - 00:28:37:05
Unknown
and delivery focused. So very operational and really good at that shaping something from nothing in order to make it executable. She's excellent on that. Harry's very analytical. So business cases is analysis data. He's he's that. And then there's me.
00:28:37:07 - 00:28:37:16
Unknown
You know,
00:28:37:16 - 00:28:50:15
Unknown
my skills are really around the stakeholder, the selling, the engagement with clients, customer facing. Very customer facing I mean we're all customer facing. So who looks after the finance side of it Harry. So he's got the
00:28:50:15 - 00:28:52:02
Unknown
so he's data the and then
00:28:52:02 - 00:28:53:08
Unknown
so you're the sort of
00:28:53:08 - 00:28:55:13
Unknown
front you go out and open the doors and get.
00:28:55:13 - 00:28:56:05
Unknown
Yeah. Really
00:28:56:05 - 00:28:56:18
Unknown
all x
00:28:56:18 - 00:28:58:18
Unknown
and then they'll come behind you to deliver them.
00:28:58:18 - 00:29:03:13
Unknown
Yeah yeah yeah. So so that was very is how it works at the beginning. Yeah. And then
00:29:03:13 - 00:29:08:09
Unknown
we all got involved in recruitment and we yeah we all got involved with it. So, so you know there
00:29:08:09 - 00:29:11:12
Unknown
are three of you at the beginning and then you hire a fourth person.
00:29:11:17 - 00:29:11:23
Unknown
Yeah. So
00:29:11:23 - 00:29:14:24
Unknown
the first person in between, how did you agree on who to hire.
00:29:14:24 - 00:29:16:08
Unknown
Well we had a need on, on,
00:29:16:08 - 00:29:20:03
Unknown
on one of the contracts with one and,
00:29:20:03 - 00:29:25:00
Unknown
it was around technology and data because what we're doing is if we're helping,
00:29:25:00 - 00:29:33:09
Unknown
clients in the tech space, which is what Virgin contract. And that was one of our contracts with sagacity as well as just their outstanding customer.
00:29:33:11 - 00:29:35:03
Unknown
They were a longstanding customer.
00:29:35:03 - 00:29:46:07
Unknown
Was that data and technology? And we'd work with a couple of guys historically and they still with us today. So those two joined,
00:29:46:07 - 00:29:53:23
Unknown
the business as independent contractors. So we were all contractors rather than employees. So it de-risked.
00:29:53:23 - 00:30:01:08
Unknown
Yeah. And I think early on, and we run that model actually for a little while in the business before we started bringing employees.
00:30:01:10 - 00:30:08:03
Unknown
But it was the assignment wasn't just project based work. Was that, I suppose, at the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:08:03 - 00:30:13:05
Unknown
So that's how I guess the journey. So how many people do you have today?
00:30:13:05 - 00:30:16:06
Unknown
Nearly 200. 200 people. Yeah.
00:30:16:06 - 00:30:17:00
Unknown
what advice would you
00:30:17:00 - 00:30:19:14
Unknown
give to someone thinking of starting up now?
00:30:19:14 - 00:30:24:23
Unknown
you're thinking of starting a business today and what top five things should you be thinking about? Anita.
00:30:24:23 - 00:30:38:21
Unknown
Firstly, just do it. Don't overthink it if you've got an idea. If you. Because I do. Yeah, because I think the problem is people would like to have their own business, don't have the idea. And that's where I think it sometimes goes wrong.
00:30:38:21 - 00:30:43:09
Unknown
And they almost dwell on that for years. But actually, if you've got an idea. So
00:30:43:09 - 00:30:44:19
Unknown
what was your first idea?
00:30:44:19 - 00:30:54:13
Unknown
So my first idea was to go and be better than other consultancies and give proper,
00:30:54:13 - 00:30:56:06
Unknown
practical advice,
00:30:56:06 - 00:30:58:14
Unknown
you'd like to be measured by your sort of results
00:30:58:14 - 00:30:58:19
Unknown
and.
00:30:58:20 - 00:31:04:15
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. Make it measurable. So. Okay, so you got an idea. So what else do you. So I get on with it. What else. Yeah. So I think,
00:31:04:15 - 00:31:08:22
Unknown
having the idea and not overthink it. Secondly,
00:31:08:22 - 00:31:12:10
Unknown
relationships. So surround yourself by,
00:31:12:10 - 00:31:17:21
Unknown
good people, people you know and can trust, and you
00:31:17:21 - 00:31:19:09
Unknown
couldn't have them better than your best friend.
00:31:19:09 - 00:31:20:00
Unknown
Than your brother.
00:31:20:00 - 00:31:20:18
Unknown
It's fabulous in that
00:31:20:18 - 00:31:21:09
Unknown
respect.
00:31:21:09 - 00:31:22:08
Unknown
Exactly.
00:31:22:08 - 00:31:23:00
Unknown
So,
00:31:23:00 - 00:31:23:24
Unknown
know and trust.
00:31:23:24 - 00:31:26:05
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. Trust that
00:31:26:05 - 00:31:42:12
Unknown
thirdly, build that engagement and rapport with clients. Yeah. So identify who your clients are likely to be and go and talk to them and see what they need. How did you get in front of them. So using your network.
00:31:42:14 - 00:31:50:24
Unknown
So I would say everybody has a network and sometimes they don't realize they have a network. And what I mean by that is
00:31:50:24 - 00:31:57:08
Unknown
could be a next door neighbor. Yeah, it could be a relative. It could be,
00:31:57:08 - 00:32:07:10
Unknown
somebody from your previous employment if you were employed. So use your network of people, you know, to help you, and people are willing to help.
00:32:07:11 - 00:32:14:08
Unknown
I mean, I have people starting businesses now, and I'm always willing to help them or introduce them to our advisors or people I know or.
00:32:14:08 - 00:32:14:21
Unknown
Sure.
00:32:14:21 - 00:32:16:07
Unknown
So I'd say part of it's just
00:32:16:07 - 00:32:17:23
Unknown
knowing what they want or.
00:32:17:23 - 00:32:18:05
Unknown
Yeah,
00:32:18:05 - 00:32:18:15
Unknown
I'm asking
00:32:18:15 - 00:32:19:10
Unknown
them. Yeah.
00:32:19:19 - 00:32:20:23
Unknown
So I think,
00:32:20:23 - 00:32:28:18
Unknown
that's really important. I think the fourth thing is to deliver on what you say said build up reputation.
00:32:28:21 - 00:32:34:21
Unknown
You said that more than once. Yeah. Doing what? You promise? Yeah. Do what you promise. I think is really, really key.
00:32:34:21 - 00:32:40:21
Unknown
We all known and have a really strong reputation for very good delivery.
00:32:40:21 - 00:32:49:18
Unknown
You were listening to a video earlier from synergy Bank two. Trotter. And so what have you done for synergy Bank? So synergy Bank,
00:32:49:18 - 00:32:54:19
Unknown
we've done a variety of transformation programs, really helping them,
00:32:54:19 - 00:33:00:12
Unknown
with new applications like the mobile app or building,
00:33:00:12 - 00:33:03:16
Unknown
or understanding what they need to build.
00:33:03:18 - 00:33:08:00
Unknown
So you can build a mobile app for their bank. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:08:00 - 00:33:11:04
Unknown
So it's helping project manage or,
00:33:11:04 - 00:33:23:02
Unknown
do some analysis or help with the tech in, in some cases. So it's really helping businesses, in that space. So delivery is absolutely key.
00:33:23:02 - 00:33:31:21
Unknown
And then the fifth thing is billing and collections, making sure you've got the money in the business, overexpose yourself to rightly,
00:33:31:21 - 00:33:35:06
Unknown
so keeping an eye on the finances.
00:33:35:08 - 00:33:55:09
Unknown
And actually one of the strong advice, I'd say, is where businesses fail, where there's more than one person involved is over the finances. And I think, what do you mean, go into so somebody might start saying, well, I've done more hours than you or I deserve more of the share of this or,
00:33:55:09 - 00:33:57:09
Unknown
or things haven't been billed properly.
00:33:57:09 - 00:34:13:14
Unknown
So it can happen from a relationship point of view, or it can happen from a transactional point of view. And I'd say make somebody accountable for the money. So, you know, with those three, how are you was key in leading that and trusting,
00:34:13:14 - 00:34:19:23
Unknown
and making sure that that's happen. Of course you have governance checks and balances, but, you know, just treat each of the fairly.
00:34:20:00 - 00:34:35:20
Unknown
And then I think that's a key recipe for success. Most businesses that fail that I talk to or aren't progressing, there's always some issue around money generally, are the ones we talk to. And the obvious one, be they haven't got enough income, I
00:34:35:20 - 00:34:39:09
Unknown
suppose. But I suppose you're saying it's beyond that. It's how it's
00:34:39:09 - 00:34:41:14
Unknown
it's how it's administered and managed.
00:34:41:14 - 00:34:49:18
Unknown
Yeah. That's what you see invariably. Yeah, yeah. See that where we see businesses fail, all business owners I've spoken to.
00:34:49:18 - 00:35:01:24
Unknown
But having enough money again, I think there's various ways to run a business and de-risk some of the money needs. It's almost like you need to sell a bit before you grow.
00:35:01:24 - 00:35:03:06
Unknown
And that's how we started.
00:35:03:06 - 00:35:04:22
Unknown
Actually, we would never,
00:35:04:22 - 00:35:09:15
Unknown
go to overstretch ourselves. We only employed people when we had the money to employ them.
00:35:09:15 - 00:35:10:10
Unknown
We,
00:35:10:10 - 00:35:11:01
Unknown
said you do
00:35:11:01 - 00:35:13:11
Unknown
you borrow money? Do you have debt in your business?
00:35:13:11 - 00:35:25:24
Unknown
We do today, but we didn't. And pretty sort of say five years before that. So 15 years we've run the business with no debt and we a cash rate, right, as an organization because we were very,
00:35:25:24 - 00:35:28:21
Unknown
I guess astute with how we run that.
00:35:28:23 - 00:35:47:18
Unknown
And not to get caught up in some of the things you can, you know, everyone's always giving you great ideas to bring in this third party and bringing this system and bringing that into your organization. And before you know it, you get caught up into it and you can spend a lot of money, which I think can be a waste.
00:35:47:23 - 00:35:52:12
Unknown
And I think the key there is to choose the right investor. So that's interesting
00:35:52:12 - 00:35:58:04
Unknown
because you obviously as a triumvirate, you've sold some of your shares to a. So now four of you involved.
00:35:58:04 - 00:36:00:17
Unknown
Is that right. Yeah. So how did you
00:36:00:17 - 00:36:03:18
Unknown
how did that work as a decision making process?
00:36:03:18 - 00:36:06:00
Unknown
You obviously didn't sell the whole company. You've decided.
00:36:06:00 - 00:36:08:13
Unknown
Yeah. We through that. Yeah. I mean, we kept,
00:36:08:13 - 00:36:29:13
Unknown
a proportion between the three of us, but I think we got the company to a stage where we recognize that in order to grow, we needed fresh ideas, different type of investment into the business. So, you know, if we're buying the business, it's multiple million pounds we need. So we wanted to de-risk ourselves,
00:36:29:13 - 00:36:30:12
Unknown
by bringing in,
00:36:30:12 - 00:36:34:03
Unknown
an investment company.
00:36:34:05 - 00:36:50:06
Unknown
And I must admit, I think we took quite a lot of time trying to work through. Did you see the type of investor we need? You speak to a few people? Yeah, we spoke to a lot of people. The elaborate courtship process. It was. Yeah, yeah. You spoke to a lot of people. Yeah. We did, we spoke.
00:36:50:06 - 00:37:04:17
Unknown
So what were you looking for in the. So we were looking for the biggest thing we were looking for is a company that's culturally aligned to us. So the way that they operate and we operate, how could you tell they understood us?
00:37:04:17 - 00:37:11:02
Unknown
Through the interactions we were having, they weren't signing our products. They were understanding us. So how would you describe your culture?
00:37:11:02 - 00:37:19:18
Unknown
So our cultures, it's very fair. It's open, it's honest, it's fast moving. It's,
00:37:19:18 - 00:37:28:14
Unknown
you know, wanting to get on with stuff. So we didn't want to have a partner that took forever making decisions. We didn't want a partner that didn't,
00:37:28:14 - 00:37:38:07
Unknown
so can do culture. Yeah, a can do culture, but also that. Listen. So a lot of investment houses are very spreadsheet driven and nothing counts.
00:37:38:09 - 00:37:45:06
Unknown
Whereas they were demonstrating. Whilst the spreadsheet is important, so are people in supporting founders in a business. So
00:37:45:06 - 00:38:02:01
Unknown
that's their real ethos. Which we've been living through for three years. So when things in businesses, you know, they don't always go the way you planned. So sometimes we know that. So they go the way you planned to go, the way they go.
00:38:02:03 - 00:38:29:15
Unknown
Yeah. To keep going. Yeah. And sometimes they don't. And what we found with those guys and we had those open conversations at the beginning is they've supported us through that. Rather than feel they can beat you up because you haven't met this number, etc.. Yeah. So so they feel like partners do. Yeah they do. And I think that's really important because sometimes people go into these relationships with investors because they're desperate for the money.
00:38:29:15 - 00:38:32:13
Unknown
So we weren't desperate for the money because we were cash rich. And
00:38:32:13 - 00:38:37:02
Unknown
we wanted more the capability, the ideas, the growth story in strategy.
00:38:37:02 - 00:38:38:01
Unknown
So,
00:38:38:01 - 00:38:39:13
Unknown
I think so. So if someone
00:38:39:13 - 00:38:41:18
Unknown
who's grown a business was thinking of
00:38:41:18 - 00:38:44:02
Unknown
seeking an investor,
00:38:44:02 - 00:38:47:16
Unknown
said look for cultural match. Is there anything else they should look for?
00:38:47:16 - 00:38:58:24
Unknown
The reason I say cultural match is key was for us. Prior to that, we had a small investor engaged with sagacity and they were just not a cultural match.
00:38:58:24 - 00:39:07:14
Unknown
And that made it really difficult and made us not enjoy our job. I repair it and it was how did that manifest
00:39:07:14 - 00:39:08:02
Unknown
itself?
00:39:08:02 - 00:39:10:13
Unknown
That was more what in terms of
00:39:10:13 - 00:39:12:01
Unknown
What were they doing that made you not enjoy
00:39:12:01 - 00:39:14:22
Unknown
You know, continually on the numbers. You've missed this, you've missed this. And,
00:39:14:22 - 00:39:15:24
Unknown
you know, it's that beating up
00:39:15:24 - 00:39:17:04
Unknown
type feel,
00:39:17:04 - 00:39:20:07
Unknown
continues without understanding any reason, rationale.
00:39:20:09 - 00:39:24:15
Unknown
And you all know, James, in business, the economy changes, clients change.
00:39:24:15 - 00:39:28:20
Unknown
You know, you want to sum it goes up, it goes down, you know, over the long
00:39:28:20 - 00:39:30:19
Unknown
view. You want to be going forwards and improving.
00:39:30:19 - 00:39:33:15
Unknown
Exactly. So as long as you've got that longer term
00:39:33:15 - 00:39:35:15
Unknown
so they just didn't fit with those,
00:39:35:15 - 00:39:39:02
Unknown
culturally. But QPR did.
00:39:39:02 - 00:39:42:13
Unknown
And that's why we spent a lot of time. And I think if,
00:39:42:13 - 00:39:53:15
Unknown
you can get the people element right, like I said, throw out really if you can get the people element right with clients or in sales with clients during engagement with investors,
00:39:53:15 - 00:40:03:18
Unknown
the rest kind of flows because you can work together providing, you know, you've got half a brain selling a product and a service that sells, then I think you get through it.
00:40:03:18 - 00:40:09:16
Unknown
But is there an expectation from a private equity investor that you've got to sell the business at some point because they want their pay day that night.
00:40:09:16 - 00:40:14:14
Unknown
Yeah. So there's normally you know, a 3 to 5 year cycle,
00:40:14:14 - 00:40:21:23
Unknown
with investors. And then as if the growth strategy has been achieved then obviously they get great multiples and so do we.
00:40:22:00 - 00:40:22:07
Unknown
Yeah.
00:40:22:07 - 00:40:23:13
Unknown
So that's a sort of part of the
00:40:23:13 - 00:40:25:01
Unknown
expectation or share goal.
00:40:25:01 - 00:40:26:11
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:26:11 - 00:40:32:13
Unknown
But people going into the into an arrangement like this need to understand that you can't stay in there indefinitely.
00:40:32:13 - 00:40:32:21
Unknown
Yeah
00:40:32:21 - 00:40:35:16
Unknown
necessarily. So some private equity sell to other private equity is done
00:40:35:16 - 00:40:38:11
Unknown
like that. Yes. Yeah. And do that all trade or.
00:40:38:11 - 00:40:39:00
Unknown
Yeah.
00:40:39:00 - 00:40:48:13
Unknown
Yeah. And then that part of the strategy is is agreed and you know have regular board meetings where we can have those sensible. But you've also
00:40:48:13 - 00:40:52:01
Unknown
you've mentioned the people aspect of this quite a lot. And
00:40:52:01 - 00:40:59:05
Unknown
and I want to ask you, when you recruit people this is my favorite subject, what do you look for in terms of building your team?
00:40:59:05 - 00:41:10:12
Unknown
Because you built a team from when you originally hired to people to join. We can hardly persuade them to join and start a business. You build a team of 200. What are you looking for in the people you hire?
00:41:10:12 - 00:41:22:10
Unknown
One of the biggest things we're looking for is their value set. So what is their value set in terms of their attitude to work?
00:41:22:12 - 00:41:44:02
Unknown
They're attitude to customers, their attitude to the product or service you're selling. You know, how much research have they done? How much have they looked into it? How much do they really want the job? That cultural fit again as well. It's really, really important. Because they've got to fit in to the teams and make sure they embrace the culture that we've built,
00:41:44:02 - 00:41:44:21
Unknown
as an organization.
00:41:44:21 - 00:41:45:10
Unknown
So what?
00:41:45:10 - 00:41:48:11
Unknown
So how do you identify someone's values? That's quite hard,
00:41:48:11 - 00:41:54:11
Unknown
No. I think you can extrapolate and understand some of that through some of the questions,
00:41:54:11 - 00:42:05:11
Unknown
that are some directly what you ask that. Well, it's just sometimes through questioning. So you might say talk me through where you've had a really difficult situation. What's that difficult situation, Ben?
00:42:05:13 - 00:42:23:22
Unknown
And you can say how did they overcome it. And you can often see their value set. Sometimes you'll see we've got all this and you can see that, oh, probably not the values that we want because they've just said the outcome of that issue was. And then sometimes you can think, well, they handle that really maturely. And
00:42:23:22 - 00:42:25:18
Unknown
they've dealt with it in an appropriate manner.
00:42:25:18 - 00:42:34:01
Unknown
That's a really good example. So so then tell me about a time when type question. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that draws out quite a lot. And I think
00:42:34:01 - 00:42:41:17
Unknown
in our questioning they're probably not standard. Give me strengths weakness. What have you done here. It's trying to to some them more
00:42:41:17 - 00:42:45:06
Unknown
you know question how would you be describe down the pub.
00:42:45:06 - 00:42:52:21
Unknown
What do you just not like? And I always give an example, you know, I'll say I don't like sitting in front of a spreadsheet, but I love seeing the output of one.
00:42:52:21 - 00:43:08:18
Unknown
So I say, look, it's okay to say what you don't like and what you like because you ask them what they don't like. Yeah, I ask them what they don't like. And I say that's really important to us because we have so many different roles that we can adjust a role to what I suppose a lot of people ask that
00:43:08:18 - 00:43:15:03
Unknown
question and think, oh, I better be careful what I say that you you want to hear what they don't like so you can make sure they're in the right.
00:43:15:03 - 00:43:24:04
Unknown
Yeah. And we explain that. So I say law and part of the role is this. And if you say you don't like that part, we can remove that part and actually focus on the bit. Eli.
00:43:24:04 - 00:43:35:03
Unknown
Because I'm a great believer that people will excel in something they like as opposed to many organizations will spend time training people in what they're not good at, what they don't like.
00:43:35:05 - 00:43:37:10
Unknown
Yes. No, I agree with you. I
00:43:37:10 - 00:43:41:16
Unknown
mean, there was so much more energy unleashed if people are doing things that they like.
00:43:41:16 - 00:43:43:08
Unknown
that's we're listening to that.
00:43:43:08 - 00:43:52:02
Unknown
I'm thinking, well, I suppose, do I want someone to understand me better or not? You know, you're saying I can I know whether you want to get an SMS or whether you'd like to get the post.
00:43:52:02 - 00:43:58:02
Unknown
Is that is that helpful or is that threatening? Because there's so much data that can take you in
00:43:58:02 - 00:43:59:18
Unknown
infinite directions.
00:43:59:18 - 00:44:01:24
Unknown
And some people are worried about these big companies having all this
00:44:01:24 - 00:44:03:05
Unknown
data and
00:44:03:05 - 00:44:07:13
Unknown
other people feel it. Maybe it'll enable them to get a better service. So
00:44:07:13 - 00:44:19:24
Unknown
well, if so, how can you reassure me? Anita? Well, one of the things I said early on is we will only use fully permissioned data, and we will use it for the purposes that that data has been permissioned for.
00:44:20:01 - 00:44:41:01
Unknown
So each data attribute in the company has a tag what we can use it for. So if we have data on you, for example, James, it might be we can only use it to market something to you, but we can't use it for debt collection. Right. Or it might be we can use it for debt collection, but we can't use it for marketing.
00:44:41:01 - 00:44:52:01
Unknown
So each data has to be marked. But it's fully permissioned in the sense that you've given permission for that data to. But how do I give permission for my data to be used for debt collection? So because
00:44:52:01 - 00:44:59:12
Unknown
if I knew that might not. Yeah. So for example, you may sign up to Sky for. Yes.
00:44:59:12 - 00:45:09:00
Unknown
And in there terms and conditions will be that they have the right to send your data for debt collection if you don't pay.
00:45:09:02 - 00:45:11:08
Unknown
So most contracts will have that in there.
00:45:11:08 - 00:45:16:19
Unknown
Because I've said that once that applies well that then applies for Sky to use that. Yeah.
00:45:16:19 - 00:45:19:16
Unknown
Data but just for sky. Yeah. Just for sky.
00:45:19:16 - 00:45:23:10
Unknown
So people who are doing this should be aware that that's what they're doing.
00:45:23:15 - 00:45:25:11
Unknown
Yes. Yeah. It's important.
00:45:25:11 - 00:45:47:03
Unknown
Yeah. If you've got a concern and you can always go back to that data. So if you can't remember and you say, right, I've now received this from boots example, it's all these are clients of all spirits. Tesco's the I have mentioned. So we've got over 350 brands that we work with. Right. So they're communicating and we're communicating with millions of people every day.
00:45:47:04 - 00:45:56:21
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. We all our data's out there. So you could then come back and say well where did I permission this. And we've got now detail as to where it was.
00:45:56:21 - 00:45:59:02
Unknown
So if I, if I was to ask that you be able to
00:45:59:02 - 00:46:00:06
Unknown
tell me. Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:00:06 - 00:46:04:02
Unknown
And now I like asking these two questions that I ask everybody.
00:46:04:02 - 00:46:11:08
Unknown
I'm going to ask you. And the first question is what gets you up on a Monday morning at Isa?
00:46:11:08 - 00:46:23:17
Unknown
I think the fascinating stuff we do with data, with our clients. That's what gets me out. So you just want to look at the next data set. I want to look at the next thing that we found. We've identified.
00:46:23:17 - 00:46:30:24
Unknown
You know, just the excitement that our teams and myself come from that, you know, we've got probably shows huge passion,
00:46:30:24 - 00:46:33:05
Unknown
for making that data workable for clients.
00:46:33:05 - 00:46:41:17
Unknown
So I guess I love my job and I love the company. And that's what gets me up on a Wednesday morning. Now I can see that. Thank you for that.
00:46:41:17 - 00:46:44:18
Unknown
And the last question is a question from my interview book.
00:46:44:18 - 00:46:47:08
Unknown
You've mentioned some of the questions you like to ask.
00:46:47:08 - 00:46:49:02
Unknown
This is one of our fateful 15.
00:46:49:02 - 00:46:55:11
Unknown
So as a classic interview question that people get asked often, which is where do you see yourself in five years time?
00:46:55:11 - 00:47:18:02
Unknown
I could see myself advising businesses, smaller businesses, and I could see myself helping young children. The don't enjoy school, but how to become entrepreneurs.
00:47:18:04 - 00:47:21:11
Unknown
Interesting, because I think there's a big link there.
00:47:21:21 - 00:47:29:07
Unknown
No, I mean, a lot of the entrepreneurs I've spoken to didn't go to university and didn't perform, particularly when at school.
00:47:29:07 - 00:47:31:21
Unknown
Yeah, I think there's a link. Yeah.
00:47:31:21 - 00:47:33:05
Unknown
So I wish you well with that.
00:47:33:05 - 00:47:39:20
Unknown
So keep encouraging them. Anita. Thanks for coming in. Thank you. Thanks, James. Thank you. I enjoyed that very much.
00:47:41:02 - 00:48:00:14
Unknown
Thank you, Anita, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reed, Sagacity or Anita, all the links are in the show notes. See you next time.
All about business is brought to you by Reed Global. Learn more at: www.reed.com
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